The Point: Chilly Toward Children

Ontario thinks you’re better off childless. For the Colson Center, I’m John Stonestreet with The Point.

A publicly-funded ad in Ontario, Canada shows a woman happily scrolling on her smart phone and sipping a latte, when her little girl sneaks up and shoots a spit-wad in her ear. As the girl laughs and runs away, the mom types “birth control” into the search engine.

Funny? No, not at all. As a LifeSiteNews writer points out, that province is strapped for cash and experiencing a birthrate well below the replacement rate. In other words, more people are dying there than being born. And like Japan, that part of Canada faces problems with its economy and government entitlements because of low fertility.

Why is Ontario spending tax dollars advertising childlessness? What kind of message do ads like this send to parents who consider their kids a blessing, or who want to have kids and can’t have them?

How different from this attitude is the one we find in Scriptures like Psalm 127, which calls children a “heritage from the Lord” and “Blessed is the one whose quiver is full” and that calls children “his reward.”

 

Resources

Ontario releases offensive, anti-child ad: Kids are annoying, use birth control
  • André Schutten | Lifesitenews.com | June 22, 2017

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  • Just one of many voices

    It baffles me too. And even the same hope that no such attitude really exists!

  • Phoenix1977

    I have no idea how your three year old behaves but if you look at quite a few three year old’s nowadays you’d wish their parents had looked up things about birth control BEFORE that three year old was conceived. Parents no longer parent their children. Everything goes. And those who have a problem with be damned.

    Now I must say I had quite an old-fashioned childhood. My parents were my parents, not my friends. And even today, at the age of 40, it’s still very clear to me to treat them with the respect due or else … Which was a knowledge my parents made sure I had as a three year old. Unfortunately, not all children know a thing about respect for others or other people’s property. My next door neighbor’s child (six years old) terrorizes half the building and her little sister (two years old) the other half. My neighbors have absolutely no control over their children and are completely desperate. And the other day they told me she was pregnant again. The best part of the news was they were looking for a bigger home because three kids in one apartment was too much. I wish them all the luck, but preferably in some other part of town, if not the country.
    Not to mention the children demanding candy, cakes and whatever more when doing groceries (please, parents, leave your children home when going to the supermarket!) or the ones who take great joy in throwing all the clothes of the racks in department stores. Not to mention the children of sick patients in my ward who think our hospital is their personal playground, no matter there are more sick people there.

    So I think birth control is a wonderful thing. More people should use it and more governments should advertise for it.

    • Just one of many voices

      I’m just curious, Phoenix, how/when did you stumble upon BreakPoint? What keeps you coming back when, clearly, you have quite the opposite view?

      I came to BP just a few months ago or so. My parents shared it with me. What keeps me coming back is that it seems like a good place to have discussion, and therefore grow one’s ability to engage those of different beliefs. In essence, my faith commands me to engage with the world; not stay in my comfort zone.

      • Phoenix1977

        My non-faith commands me to do the same, which is part of why I keep coming back. Another reason is a lot darker: “Keep your friends close and your enemies closer”.

        • Just one of many voices

          Care to elaborate on keeping enemies closer, and why that’s a lot darker reason?

          It could be said that Christians ought to keep enemies closer too, as we are commanded to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us.

          If this is too personal or too far off topic, no worries.

        • Daniel Pascale

          Hello Pheonix1977,

          We all have faith, be it in billions of years and that we are but a flash in the pan, here today and forgotten tomorrow. My faith, the very reason I put everything I am into raising my children with love and respect for themselves and others and with boundaries is because of the hope I have, that through faith in Jesus Christ, this life on earth is just the beginning of what is to come. This has also been reinforced by God by raising Jesus from the dead, an event in history that based all available evidence is extremely difficult to deny.

          Further, this has also been reinforced to me in a much more intimate/personal fashion, when I encountered God, a spiritual reality that I also cannot deny, it is as real as the love I feel for my own wife and children, love that I now put into action every day (not perfectly as I through hindsight I often realize how selfish I can be at times).

          With respect.

    • Zarm

      But those three-year-olds turn into everyone. Your lover. Your coworkers. Your friends and family. The next generation that will actually inherit everything you work to create. The next inventors, the next innovators, the next leaders. Everyone you meet was a three-year-old; every three-year-old you see will (barring accident) become an adult.

      That’s my point, I think; children are not some separate creatures from adults; you don’t get any of the people that you do like, or need, without them being children first. You eliminate the annoying three-year-olds, and you eliminate everyone. Yes, there are stages (the twos and threes particularly) that are endured more than enjoyed… but without them, you don’t have any adults, either.

      • Phoenix1977

        “But those three-year-olds turn into everyone. Your lover. Your coworkers. Your friends and family. The next generation that will actually inherit everything you work to create. The next inventors, the next innovators, the next leaders.”
        That is a truly terrifying thought!

    • GrantFamilyPastures

      Phoenix is on to something. It’s amazing even non-believers can see how dysfunctional our society has become with regards to parenting. When a society casts off and shuns the prescription God has made for parents to raise children, this is what you get….chaos. My wife and I have seven children of our own, so I have something to say about the matter. We spank our children when they don’t obey, my wife is at home full time and educates our children, we work as a team in the context of marriage to raise our children, we don’t have our children in a billion activities, we eat dinner together about 6 days a week, we expect our children and train them diligently to have manners, we give our children responsibility in the form of work…….all the things our society rejects. Our children are far from perfect, but we’re not afraid to take them anywhere, even the grocery store because they have some manners. All seven children even sit in church with us for 2 hours every Sunday! Society and even general church culture is completely contrary to God’s ways, so it’s no wonder children aren’t viewed as a blessing. It’s sad that parents can’t even discipline (i.e. spank) their children anymore without fear of some person calling the State authority on them. It’s sad that most parents see the government as the entity to educate their children. When you give your children to Cesar, don’t surprised when your children end up becoming Romans. It’s sad that mother’s have cast off self-sacrifice and the responsibility to raise up a home in order to chase a career (notice I said mothers and not woman). But go ahead parents, go ahead church, keep doing things the world’s ways, and the chaos will continue.

      • Just one of many voices

        I must confess my envy of your situation 🙂 We’re a young family, and my wife and I LONG to be a one-income family. For now though, we must both work and receive a little financial help from our church and local food bank; just to maintain a very basic standard of living (no debts other than our mortgage, cars nearly 20 years old & barely running, no television services, etc.) Did I also mention I’m going back to school for the 3rd time? Employment has been the lousy headline in my life.

        I’m prone to worry, but that worry continues to diminish as God continues to provide! Even if it seems like last minute 🙂 (Thinking of God providing manna for one day at a time to the Israelites, and Jesus words about worry in Matthew 6)

        • GrantFamilyPastures

          Thanks for sharing my brother. I must confess that we never set out to have a large family, but as we stepped out in faith and relinquished that area in our life to God, we have watched God provide abundantly with each child, never once failing us. Like you, we are committed to a lifestyle of being debt free, which has meant old vehicles, a 100 year old fixer farm house, keeping monthly expenses to the bare minimum, no TV (actually a blessing and not a sacrifice), etc. May I encourage you to continue the path you’re both on to have mom at home. If that is a desire of your heart, commit it to God and go to work. He surely will not turn away from such a request. I too went back to school and it was hard and stressful at times, but we made it and that endeavor paid off. As Priest, Prophet, and Provider of your home, ask God to throw that responsibility on your shoulders alone, step out in faith, and watch God work. Blessings to you and your family.

  • Gina Dalfonzo

    AtTheCrossroads, that last sentence was wholly inappropriate. As a single and childless person, I know too well what it’s like to be told “good luck in old age with no one to take care of you.” It’s unrealistic (lots of people who grow old without spouses or children are able to arrange for care), and more than that, it’s extremely unkind. Please watch your tone and don’t say that again.

  • Just one of many voices

    WOW…….those kind of people leave me speechless. Nothing but hatred & judgment. They must not read the New Testament part of the Bible or something.

    I know you think the odds are next to nothing, but I’ve said it before & I’ll say it again: I sincerely hope you get to meet a Christian who LIVES the gospel. Alas, these people are few and far between. But they have been changed, renewed and transformed by faith that is real, and does away with all hate, anger, bitterness & malice.

    About the closest I can relate to your situation is an acquaintance of mine. Last time I met him, he seemed to have calmed down some. But before, he was Bible-thumping every single time you ran into him. Suffice to say it was hard to be around him and not feel judged all the time.

  • gladys1071

    You now At the Crossroads ever heard of “different strokes for different folks” ? everyone is different and not everyone wants or likes children and you know what this fine. You seem to think that everyone should have children and be like you. Some people are not meant to be parents, some people don’t have children because they never get married or whatever.

    You think that you have the right answer for everyone and that everyone should live like you say so? well how about mind your own business and let people be?

    • Gina Dalfonzo

      Gladys, I already asked AtTheCrossroads to moderate the tone. No need to pile on.

  • Just one of many voices

    So, does the Bible have any authority in your life?

    Let me answer your question by giving some context of where I come from: I totally agree, faith is primarily a vertical relationship between God and the individual. That vertical relationship directly affects the horizontal (how I interact and engage with culture). It is my own conviction that, if that faith does not clearly change my horizontal engagement & day to day living, then it is not a saving faith. In other words, if my faith stops at intellectual thought/exercise, then it is no faith at all.

    Building on that, God’s written word–the Bible–is the primary source that informs how I live. I’m not one to limit His method of communication. Mostly, I find that He communicates to me through the Bible itself.

    So, what does the Bible say about engaging culture? Well, how about the great commission for starters? Matthew 28:16-20. Jesus and his disciples spent a great amount of time engaging the public OUTSIDE the church (Mark 2:13-17 is a good one, but really just read all 4 gospel accounts!)

    I could go on & on. But ultimately, Christian faith starts–as you said–between God and the individual. Real & sincere faith will continuously grow, building relationships within the church, and outside the church. Acts 2:42-27, Acts 4:32-37, 1 Corinthians 12, and Matthew 9:35-38 all combine to paint a beautiful picture of how real, life-changing Christian faith will function.

    I hope this answers your question! I like your humility in recognizing that God is mysterious & we don’t have it all figured out. Separation of church & state…whoo, that’s a whole other can of worms.

  • Phoenix1977

    If you refering to children: HELL NO!
    If you refer to beinga Christian: been there, done that, most definitely HELL NO!!!!!!!

  • Steve

    Phoenix,
    I am very sorry that you were treated in such a way by people who were proclaiming to be Christian. I am quite sure that Christ himself would not treat you a such. That is why none of us after Him have been perfect, only human.
    Your dismissive attitude towards children echoes some of the bad treatment that you have received. You have disdain for them because of their behavior as well.
    If you want others to treat you with respect for who you are you should do the same to them. No one is perfect. Making comments about wishing there were more birth control so these children would never had been born is quite a nasty thing to say.

    • Phoenix1977

      My dismissive attitude towards children is just that. I actually should come with a warning label, stating: “Not suitable for children of any age for longer than a few hours”.

  • Sam Benito

    Gladys, you say “I don’t believe in Christians getting involved in politics and I am a big believer in separation of church and state.”

    Suppose the government reversed Roe and made abortion illegal. Would you still want Christians like yourself*, who hold your viewpoint on abortion, to stay out of politics? Or would you want them to get involved and try to make abortion legal again?

    –——–
    * you say you lean toward Eastern Orthodox / universalist Christianity

    • gladys1071

      I don’t vote my faith. my political views are not necessarily informed by my faith. I would vote to make it legal regardless of my faith.

      • Sam Benito

        So Gladys, if the government did something inimical to your faith, such as declare that anyone sympathetic to the Eastern Orthodox / universalist faith was a traitor to the American way and must renounce such sympathies or be shot, would you abandon your religious sympathies, or would you oppose the State (actively or passively) on the grounds that the government had overstepped the bounds separating church and State?

        • gladys1071

          I would not renounce my faith, nor would I oppose the government. I would do neither, if have to die for my faith so be it. Persecution is what Strengthens the faith. We are called to be servants not to try to take power.

          It would be a sad thing to see , but Not surprising, that is why we should be grateful for the freedom we do have at this time.

          Of course I would vote for religious freedom for all if I can but NOT on the grounds to take power or promote my faith but to preserve freedom of worship of all.

          • Sam Benito

            You say you would not oppose a secular government. Suppose the secular government, returning to a position of fidelity to the Declaration of Independence, decided “oops; we goofed when we made abortion legal. It clearly says right here that all are created equal and are endowed with certain inalienable rights, and that among these are LIFE. . .”

            Would you be okay with that, if a secular government outlawed / criminalized abortion (as it once did before Roe) on the basis that it goes contrary to our founding documents?

          • gladys1071

            No i would not be ok. By the way their is no inalienable right to life that requires a uterus to be gestate in. Right to life does not mean to be imposed onto another person’s body (via gestation). So tell me where in the Constition it says that a fetus/embryo has the right to USE another person’s body for their life?

          • Sam Benito

            The Declaration of Independence, which articulates the natural law upon which the Constitution is founded, is unequivocal: “all men are CREATED–not born, but CREATED–equal. That means “at conception”, not “at birth”. The right to life begins at conception. Abortion is an unconstitutional injustice that deprives a living human being of their inalienable right to life.

          • gladys1071

            You know, the founding fathers are not here to ask them, but I will guess that they meant right to life to already “born people” (it does not say at conception) , I doubt seriously they meant that for the embryo/fetus developing in the womb. Just so you know the embryo/fetus has NEVER been considered a person and has never had any rights even before Roe vs. wade.

            We are given rights when we are born, that is why we get have “birth certificates” not conception certificates” I mean this with all due respect, it is beyond absurd to consider a fertilized egg a person with MORE rights than already born persons.

            Oh and tell me when was the last time you went to a miscarriage funeral? do we issue “death certificates” for embryos lost in menstruation or miscarriage?

          • Sam Benito

            You say that “the embryo/fetus has NEVER been considered a person and has never had any rights even before Roe vs. wade.”

            Not true.

            To cite just one of many examples from various states, here’s how Alabama’s State Code reads (note especially bullet #3):

            Section 13A-6-1
            Definitions.
            (a) As used in Article 1 and Article 2, the following terms shall have the meanings ascribed to them by this section:
            (1) CRIMINAL HOMICIDE. Murder, manslaughter, or criminally negligent homicide.
            (2) HOMICIDE. A person commits criminal homicide if he intentionally, knowingly, recklessly or with criminal negligence causes the death of another person.
            (3)PERSON. The term, when referring to the victim of a criminal homicide or assault, means a human being, including an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability.

          • gladys1071

            Let me ask you point blank, why do you want to force women to gestate even against their will? Would you impose that on a loved one of yours (a daughter, sister, mother, or other loved one). Tell me does it seem compassionate to you to tell someone that refuses to be an incubator that they MUST BY FORCE of law comply and gestate?

            Tell me how that is compassionate or the Christian thing to do to compel or someone to do something against their will? Do you think Jesus would do such a thing?

          • Gina Dalfonzo

            Since Jesus, as God, invented the process, then yes, I think He would.

          • gladys1071

            I think Jesus is more gracious than you. i think if a woman refuses to be an incubator and has an abortion, i think Jesus would be compassionate and gracious about the situation and more understanding than most pro-lifers would be. I think Jesus would understand a woman having a disgust to gestation.

          • Gina Dalfonzo

            Of course Jesus is more gracious than I am. He’s perfect, which means that in every respect He’s infinitely better than I am. But He didn’t come to this earth so that He could affirm us in doing whatever we feel like doing. He came to this earth to save us from sin.

          • gladys1071

            Yes he is perfect and more gracious and understanding than each and every one of us and that is why he would compel someone to gestate against their will. I don’t remember Jesus forcing his will on others , I mean Peter denied him 3 times and Jesus never condemned pointed fingers or said anything about it , but accepted him with wide open arms.

            I think if a woman had an abortion because of her disgust or fear of pregnancy he would understand her and compassionate

            I don’t expect that from any pro-lifer, I am right that pro-lifer’s don’t care about the pregnant woman, you prove my point.

          • Sam Benito

            Gladys, you ask, “how is it compassionate or the Christian thing to do to compel someone to do something against their will?”

            It is both compassionate and Christian to compel someone, by law, to refrain from having an innocent person put to death, regardless of how much they might want to do it. Such compulsion is both compassionate (to the victim) and Christian (recall the commandment, “thou shalt not murder”; Jesus, btw, was the author of it), and has been the stuff of the legal codes of most civilized nations for ages.

          • gladys1071

            Yes, but in this case you are forcing someone to gestate against their will you are forcing a person take on the risks of gestation unto their body and endure the trauma of childbirth ( that is not compassionate in the least bit). As a Christian I would NOT compel someone to to do that, if they felt disgusted or horrified by pregnancy.

            The compassionate thing to do is to let the person to decide themselves if they want to continue such gestation process, and allow them to terminate the process.

            compulsion is never compassionate for anyone, you and pro-lifers like you want to force and compel people to be incubators against their will, WHICH IS DISGUSTING AND INHUMANE.

            I don’t know about you, but i will not do so. I will never tell any woman she has to remain pregnant against her will.

            Maybe you should look up the word compassion, forcing gestation and childbirth is not compassion.

          • Sam Benito

            Gladys, you say, “compulsion is never compassionate for anyone”, yet you advocate the ultimate compulsion, death, upon the pre-born. If compulsion is never compassionate for anyone, then it is not compassionate for the pre-born, either. I daresay if you were forced to choose between “being an incubator” or having your limbs ripped from you piece by piece, you’d gladly choose the former over the latter.

          • gladys1071

            I actually would rather die than to be an incubator without any rights. Ever heard of “give me liberty or give me death” What good is it be a alive and being subjected to being an incubator for the benefit of another? being subject to gestational servitude.

            So you guessed incorrectly.

          • Gina Dalfonzo

            Gladys, just FYI, “The Handmaid’s Tale” is fiction.

          • gladys1071

            i consider you referring to the Handmaid’s Tale offensive to me, especially when i did not bring it up.

            I thought as a moderator, you would be more neutral and refrain from taking sides on this issue.

          • Gina Dalfonzo

            I never said I wouldn’t take a side, Gladys. My job is simply to enforce the rules as fairly as I can. I’m sorry if the reference bothered you, though I don’t know why it would; the reference to women as incubators suggested it naturally to my mind. Would you mind explaining to me what was wrong with it?

          • gladys1071

            Because you are minimizing my and any woman’s aversion to forced pregnancy/gestation and dismissing it is how it comes across to me.

          • Gina Dalfonzo

            I understand that the idea of a child in the womb seems to bring out a rage and revulsion in you the likes of which I’ve rarely seen, Gladys, even among pro-choicers. A mere biological fact — that humanity reproduces itself via pregnancy and childbirth — brings on accusations of would-be totalitarian dictatorship. I confess I have a hard time understanding exactly why. I’m no armchair psychologist, so I’m simply praying that God will help you work through whatever this is.

          • gladys1071

            What you just said is even worse. You are patronizing me and you think that their something wrong with me, and that i need help. So you think i need to be fixed. I simply hate the idea of gestation, just like i hate spiders, do you think you can pray for me to stop hating spiders too?

          • Gina Dalfonzo

            But you’re a Christian. Don’t you believe that we should pray for each other? You’re more than welcome to pray about all the things that are wrong with me. 🙂

          • gladys1071

            I don’t consider hating gestation a problem, just like i don’t like spiders and snakes and olives.

            Sure i may seem odd to you how much i hate the idea of pregnancy and childbirth, but just so you know i am not alone. My mother was like that, my Grandma was like that and i have spoken to other women that feel the same.

            Remember we are not all cookie cutter, each of us is different.

          • Gina Dalfonzo

            And yet, your mother allowed you to live.

          • gladys1071

            Yes and she hated every minute of pregnancy she told me. That was her choice to make, she could have aborted me and it would have been her right, since she came first. I would have never known.

          • gladys1071

            If i have a revulsion to childbearing, so what? you might find that odd, but that is WHO I AM . Just like their might be people out there that like spiders and snakes, yet i don’t, but i actually understand that each person is different and we are not all the same, some of us are peculiar with peculiar likes and dislikes.

            just because childbearing /pregnancy is how humanity reproduces does NOT MEAN i have to like it.

            So i just ask for you understanding, and to not dismiss me because you think this strange.

          • Gina Dalfonzo

            Gladys, to be clear, I don’t take issue with your hatred of pregnancy. I take issue with your view that hatred should lead to killing.

          • AtTheCrossroads

            Gladys, it’s not OK for a Christian to hate what God loves. It’s one thing to choose not to bear children, it’s another to “have a revulsion to childbearing”. He graciously grants us freedom in many ways, even the freedom to reject Him and His good ways. But when we find ourselves either loving what He hates, or hating what He loves, as Christians we need to repent (change our minds to conform with His). Please take the time to read and meditate on Psalm 139:13-17 and Psalm 127:3-4 and ask the Lord to change your heart.

          • gladys1071

            I will say this with all due respect. I most certainly have the freedom to hate childbearing, my standing with God does is not based on how i feel about childbearing. My standing with God is based on What Jesus did for me on the Cross, and YOU telling me that i have to repent is nothing but self-righteousness on YOUR part. You know I hate spiders too, is God angry at me for hating spiders that HE CREATED.

            You accusing me of rejecting Jesus, is beyond ridiculous, you are judging my heart and where i stand with God, and you have no such authority!

          • gladys1071

            Tell me where it says that God requires I like or love childbearing? I don’t remember that one being one of the Ten Commandments? Please tell me ?

          • Kate-

            God Himself was the first one to say that childbearing is horrible-

            Genesis 3:16 – “To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. “

          • Gina Dalfonzo

            This is not about whether childbearing is horrible. I don’t think you’ll find anyone who thinks it’s a picnic in the park. The question is whether we use this as a justification for destroying the innocent life before birth.

          • Kate-

            You were just arguing that God loves childbearing though, although He Himself said it’s meant to be a horrilbe experience. So based on the bible, it makes complete sense that people find it horrible.

          • Gina Dalfonzo

            No, I wasn’t. You have me confused with AtTheCrossroads. But I think maybe we can make a distinction between the idea that God loves a painful and difficult process, and the idea that He loves the child who comes into the world by that process.

          • Kate-

            Oops, sorry bout that, my bad!
            I don’t doubt that God loves all his children, I just personally dispute that something that is the physical equivalent of a brain dead person (a first trimester fetus with no brain function) can be termed a person.

          • gladys1071

            Exactly. I think that their this idea that as a woman we must love this process and embrace it. I think God would understand if some women do not. Many pro-lifers think that women like you and me must “conform” to their way of thinking about childbearing.

          • Kate-

            Yes, there is absolutely this idea that all women must act like pregnancy/
            childbirth are wonderful. But the reality is that the people who claim that are, with all due respect to them, living in la la land. It seems to me that our refusal to buy into their delusions bothers them because deep down, they know we’re right. i really don’t think God harshly judges us for not wanting to go through hellish experiences if we can help it.

          • gladys1071

            I have felt this way about pregnancy since I was 9 yrs old. Ever since we were taught about pregnancy I felt revulsion immediately, and I hated boys for a few years too. I am now 41, been married 20 years, i still feel the same way about pregnancy and childbirth, I am blessed to have a husband that understands me .

          • Kate-

            I, too, find pregnancy and chilbirth revolting, and I think it’s much more logical to feel that way that to feel the opposite way. The idea of pushing a person out of my genitals makes me want to vomit and drop dead simultaneously. ‘Natural’ and ‘disgusting’ are not mutually exclusive; the idea that anyone claims they are is mind boggling.

          • gladys1071

            Do you also think i need prayer for not liking spiders, or meatloaf, that i find those revolting too? Just because YOU think pregnancy and childbirth are wonderful thing and you probably long for it yourself, does not mean their aren’t people like me out there that find it revolting. Remember their all kinds of people out there with all kinds of likes dislikes.

          • Sam Benito

            Ironic that you’d rather die than be deprived the ‘liberty’ to kill your child, when Christ whom you claim to imitate, chose to die precisely so that His children could live.

          • gladys1071

            Jesus gave his life willingly, that is the DIFFERENCE. You want to force women to sacrifice their autonomy and take away the choice. just because you don’t approve, God is not a tyrant, he allows us choice, which you want to deprive others of.

            BIG DIFFERENCE!

          • Sam Benito

            You’re missing the point. First, Jesus did not WANT to drink the cup of suffering, but He was WILLING to for Love’s sake. (He prayed, “Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. But thy will, not mine, be done” (Luke 22:42)).

            Second, He sacrificed His very life to save others. By contrast, you aren’t willing to give up 9 months of ‘autonomy’ to save the lives of those you yourself brought into existence.

            To quote you, yeah, that’s a BIG DIFFERENCE!

            But I will agree with you on one thing: God is not a tyrant. In fact, such sacrificial love puts Him as far from being a tyrant as one can get. And He calls us to be imitators of Him (Eph 5:1).

          • gladys1071

            You know having this conversation with you and others have convinced me even more of my pro-choice side. The utter inflexbility and utter disregard that pro-lifers have for pregnant woman is quite astonishing.

            the perception is quite correct about you pro-lifers. You want to compel gestation and childbirth on women and basically don’t give a hoot about the pregnant woman.

            I now will fight pro-lifers attempts and taking women’s rights away even more now. I actually might donate to Planned Parenthood or other pro-choices causes. You have convinced me of your utter disgusting uncompassionate and even asinine view of women pro-lifers have.

          • Gina Dalfonzo

            Gladys, you’re dangerously close to crossing the line. Reread the comment policy — especially the part about insults and name-calling — and moderate your tone if you want to continue commenting here.

          • Ann Morgan

            And here is Gina again, tone policing under the guise of ‘moderating’. Where’s your comment to Sam, about his insult regarding being ‘cruel’ to the embryo. And don’t tell me that that’s not an insult, because it is not possible to be ‘cruel’ to something with no brain function, even if you specifically wanted to be, making all such sobs fall under the definition of ‘insults’.

          • Gina Dalfonzo

            Ann, clearly you’re having a hard time dealing with my “tone policing,” so I will spare you having to do it any more. You’re banned. Goodbye.

          • gladys1071

            Gina, Ann did nothing to deserve to be banned. She said nothing insulting to you or anyone else on here.

          • Gina Dalfonzo

            If Ann opposes the rules that govern the comment section and their enforcement, and argues that the very words that make up those rules have no clear meaning, then I see no point in her continuing to comment here. And that’s my last word on the subject.

          • Sam Benito

            I want to save helpless, innocent human life from cruel death, and yet I’m the one who is ‘disgustingly uncompassionate’?

            smh

            For the record, Gladys, I’m all for compassion to everyone involved—but not at the expense of an innocent person’s life. When you justify killing an innocent person on the flimsy grounds that the continuation of their life is undesirable to you, that’s not compassion; that’s extreme prejudice.

          • Ann Morgan

            **I want to save helpless, innocent human life from cruel death, and yet I’m the one who is ‘disgustingly uncompassionate’?**

            explain to me, please, how it is possible to be ‘cruel’ to something with no brain function, even if that were what you specifically wanted to do.

          • Ann Morgan

            Sam: I’d suggest you read the ‘Screwtape Letters’ by the Christian Philosopher, CS Lewis. You are a classic example of what he wrote about when he said that the goal of the devil was to push all virtues outwards, and away from the actual people in your life, and towards people who were far away or largely imaginary, while all the BAD qualities should be directed towards the actual real people around you.

            Some examples of this:

            1. Sending charity to people in Africa, while giving the poor in your own city nothing but condemnation.

            2. Praying for someone’s ‘soul’, said ‘soul’ bearing very little resemblence to the actual person, whom you treat like crap.

            3. Having ‘compassion’ for mindless embryoes, (which you have such an idealized image of that they bear very little resemblance to actual embryoes) while ruining the lives of thinking, feeling people.

        • gladys1071

          I still believe in separation of church and state. I want our government to be secular and to not favor any religion. I want the government to allow freedom of belief or non- belief and to worship. I want the church and or religious leaders to stay out of politics and to not try to influence politicians or political campaigns. Just as our founding fathers intended.

          I hope that makes more clear to you my position about Christians in politics.

    • gladys1071

      What i am trying to say is i don’t vote advance my faith. my political views and my faith are separate spheres. I would vote against banning abortion regardless but because i believe in a woman’s right to choose not because i am a Christian.

    • gladys1071

      I have found that one does not need to be a Christian to vote on issues or politicians, i vote because i am an American citizen.

    • gladys1071

      i would vote for abortion to stay legal, regardless of my faith. Just like i would vote against gun control regardless of my faith or no faith.

      • Sam Benito

        And I would vote for abortion to be illegal, regardless of my Christian faith. So why do you have a problem with “Christians getting involved in politics”? Why do you single them out and effectively make them inferior citizens with less input into this government of ours that is “of the people, by the people, and for the people”?

        • gladys1071

          What i have a problem with is with Christians trying to seek power over others and trying to pass laws to enforce Christian beliefs in a pluralistic society that is what i have a problem with, i have the same problem with Muslims or anyone that would try to make their faith have preferential treatment (example sharia law).

          • Sam Benito

            Do you also have a problem with non-Christians trying to seek power over others and trying to pass laws to enforce anti-Christian beliefs in a pluralistic society? Or does your ideological door only swing in one direction?

          • gladys1071

            How does a secular government force any beliefs on you? To this day i have NEVER felt in any way non-christians imposing anything on me. I have never felt my religious beliefs threatened in any way. so please explain how that is being done to you?

          • Sam Benito

            For one, the government presently forces me (and every taxpaying American) to subsidize Planned Parenthood. That goes against my conscience and my will.

          • gladys1071

            Really? that is not an example of the government forcing you to believe or worship anything, I want an example of the government telling you what you should believe or not believe in regards to religious beliefs? Is the government threatening to kill you for believing in Jesus or is the government shutting down churches?

            Those examples above i consider religious persecution.

            I know my tax dollars go to fund things i don’t agree with , but you know i don’t make a big deal about it, nor do i care, i just render unto ceasar his money which is what i am called to do and forget about it.

            What if i told you that my conscience tells me I don’t want to fund the military because i am against war? do you think i have a right to not fund the military, no i don’t but i have THE CHOICE of not serving in the military.

            Just like you have the choice not to use Planned parenthood’s services or even have to set foot there.

            You don’t have the right to force your beliefs on others NOR DO I.

          • Sam Benito

            Wait a minute. No one can “force someone” to “believe” something they don’t want to believe. It’s not possible. All they can do is force them, under penalty of law, into compliance with actions contrary to their beliefs. And that is exactly what the gov’t is doing to me by requiring my tax dollars to subsidize child murder.

            I, too, am more than willing to render unto Caesar what is his, so long as it is not inimical to the heart of my faith/conscience. But the sequel to the verse you half-quoted is that we are to render unto God what is God’s. And if my conscience tells me abortion is murder, then it is tyranny for the gov’t to force me, under penalty of law, to fund it. (And as for military service, have you not heard of conscientious objection?)

            You say no one has the right to force beliefs (i.e., practices inimical to our core beliefs) on others, and yet that is exactly what is happening here. I suspect that if your tax monies were being used to subsidize the elimination of innocent people you strongly object to being put to death (your own family members, for example), you’d find it a tyrannical violation of your core “beliefs”, and would protest the injustice of it, too.

          • gladys1071

            I guess we will have to agree to disagree on how we view being forced to believe against our will. I don’t view it the way you do. I don’t view my tax dollars funding something i disagree with the same as being forced to believe or participate in it. I accept my tax dollars will fund things i don’t agree or believe in , that is part of paying taxes and part of living in society.

            If i don’t believe in say owning a gun or using violence with a gun, i have the right to NOT buy one or use one, but i don’t have the right to not pay taxes that funds the military that uses the money to buy such weapons.

            i don’t equate funding something as the same as participating in as far as my conscience is concerned.

          • Sam Benito

            You say, “I don’t equate funding something as the same as participating in as far as my conscience is concerned.”

            Suppose the gov’t forced you to fund the pro-life movement and to militate against pro-choicers. Would you feel the same way?

  • Phoenix1977

    There are a lot of reasons why I have rejected Christianity. My sexuality is just one of them and the behavior of other Christians only confirmed to me what I already knew. And I agree with you a lot of Christians do not act the way Jesus would want them to (if he existed). A far greater writer than me (Mark Twain) once said: “If Jesus was alive today there is one thing he would not be: a Christian”. I think he was right.

    • Steve

      And C. S. Lewis said, “I believe in the Sun for the same reason I believe in Christianity; not because I can see it, but because of it I can see everything else.”
      Perhaps you should seek out and recognize the people who are indeed following the teachings of Christ, rather than focusing on those who you see as not.
      If you look at people through the lens of positivity rather than negativity you would probably feel less animosity towards them. Buddhism teaches compassion, understanding that everyone is living a great struggle. Please forgive those Christians who are acting “un-Christianly” towards you.

      • Phoenix1977

        Like I said, the behavior of Christians towards me only confirmed to me Christianity is not worth my time or devotion. I came to that conclusion pretty much the same way C.S. Lewis came to his: because I can see everything else. Why devote to a god who allows almost 2 billion people starve to death, simplt for being born on the wrong continent? Why allow children to die of AIDS for no other reason than because their parents were not careful? Why allow wars killing countless innocents? Why allow children to grow up without parents due to cancer? Why force parents to bury their children due to the same disease?
        All the misery in the world led me to one conclusion: there is no such thing as a god and even if there is one, it’s not a loving and benevolent god but a malignant one. And my time is to precious to devote to something that is either not there or in unworthy of my devotion.

        “Please forgive those Christians who are acting “un-Christianly” towards you.”
        That is simply asking too much.

  • Sam Benito

    So, in your calculus it is more just, more benevolent, more humane to kill a person who is every bit as real and unique as you or me, than it is to shelter them for 9 months, and then (if you’re still so minded to get rid of them) give them up for adoption.

  • Sam Benito

    You say, “I have no issue with you trying to persuade women against an abortion, you can do that all you want, but you wanting to pass laws to compel, i will work against you stripping women of their rights”.

    You are fine with laws that strip the pre-born of their inalienable right to life and compel them, if their mother so wills, to die. That’s a rather blatant double standard.

    • gladys1071

      it is not double standard, it is regarding rights. Their is no “special right” to be gestated inside another person. You want to give the unborn MORE rights than born people.

      • Sam Benito

        No, not “more rights than born people”. Simply an equal and inalienable right to life, just like the Declaration of Independence says.

        • gladys1071

          Needing a body for gestation is NOT equal that is SPECIAL right. It is asking for another person to provide it to you by use of their body. Equal right would be for the embro/ fetus to live outside the uterus on its own without needing a body.

          You don’t understand what equal rights means

          • Sam Benito

            So, according to you, equal rights here means that a temporarily incapacitated person that you brought into your ‘house’ can be put to death if you wish it, because according to your idea of justice, your simple disdain for them being in your ‘house’ cancels out their right to live.

            If the house were a literal brick-and-mortar dwelling, such an action would be wrong. It would be murder. So why do you assume it isn’t wrong when the figurative ‘house’ is your uterus? Upon what legal principle does your view stand? Even the justices who delivered the Roe decision acknowledged that if it were ever proved that the embryo/fetus was a person (which has since been abundantly proven), the decision has no legal standing.

  • Sam Benito

    In this case the state doesn’t compel you to DO anything. (For example, it doesn’t compel you have sex and/or get pregnant). It only compels you NOT to do something – i.e., murder an innocent child.

    And I think I understand your point very well. Having children, born or pre-born (but especially teenagers!) can be a royal pain. They force us (who are just trying to be decent parents) to do many things against our wills. But it doesn’t make it right to kill them off so we can enjoy ‘liberty’ and ‘autonomy’.

  • Sam Benito

    You’re right that “there is no other way for a woman to reclaim her uterus” than by removing the pre-born child. But the fact that there is no way to remove the pre-born child except by murdering her, surely the humane thing is to ride out the pregnancy until birth, and then give up the unwanted child to abortion. Don’t you think Jesus would applaud such a noble and unselfish sacrifice made on behalf of a defenseless person that, after all, you, not the child itself, put into your uterus?

    • Gina Dalfonzo

      I’m guessing you meant adoption?

      • Sam Benito

        Oops, yes.

    • gladys1071

      sure it would be the ‘gracious’ thing to ride it out the 9 months, but i am not arguing about being selfish or unselfish. I am arguing about bodily rights. The rights to our bodies, gives us the right to refuse, being perceived as selfish is irrelevent.

      It would also be unselfish to give all your money to the poor and or donate your kidney to a dialysis patient, but you have the RIGHT to refuse to do so and keep your kidney. Why don’t you do those things , Jesus would applaud you don’t you think?

      • Sam Benito

        Evidently I should have put my ironic statement, “such a noble and unselfish sacrifice”, within quotes. I guess I did not sufficiently consider it would be so glibly dismissed as justification for child murder on the grounds that letting the child live is supposedly an act of pure unmerited mercy, not simple compassionate justice. Lesson learned.

        • gladys1071

          having your body used for the benefit of another is an unselfish sacrifice NOT an obligation.

          • Sam Benito

            So, using the muscles of my body to earn income to provide for my wife and children is NOT an obligation? The apostle Paul said folks who neglect to provide such ‘benefits’ to their family are “worse than infidels”. What happened to the concept of duty in your worldview?

    • gladys1071

      The humane thing for you to do is to donate your kidney , their is a waiting list for people needing kidneys. If you refuse to do that, I have a right to refuse gestation and expel an unwanted pregnancy from my uterus.

      • Sam Benito

        Your analogy there doesn’t work. I did nothing to put the kidney patient in a position of need, nor would I take any active measures to kill them. Plus, there are many others who can donate a kidney to save their life, whereas in your situation, you are the only one who can save the child in your womb. Others can’t.

        Further, your analogy would work only if I went into the hospital room and deliberately killed the person needing the kidney, which is what you do to expel an unwanted child from your uterus.

        • gladys1071

          of course my analogy works, the rights to our bodies are not dependent on how the person got pregnant, as i stated , the neediness of another is irrelevent and the responsibility does not work either in a court of law. If you cause an accident (your fault) and the other party requires a blood transfusion, they CANNOT take your blood, even if you caused his need for blood. They can make you pay for his medical bills (external property, money), but they cannot make you give blood.

          You still do NOT understand bodily rights.

          The fact that the neediness of the unborn makes it require a uterus to live, does NOT mean it is ENTITLED to have one. The mother allowing the gestation is a gift, just like if i donate my kidney to a dialsys patient, it is a GIFT.

          • Sam Benito

            But Gladys, you’re missing the point. Even if we were to concede ‘bodily autonomy’, it is not absolute; it has just and reasonable limits. For example, if someone has a seizure that causes them to grab hold of my arm and not let go, that doesn’t give me the right, in the name of ‘bodily autonomy’, to murder them to make them let go. Similarly, a woman who doesn’t want her pre-born child can put the child up for adoption once it’s born. She doesn’t have the moral right to kill her/him. Bodily autonomy does not justify murder, especially when there is no clear and present threat of mortality to the complainant.

          • gladys1071

            “if someone has a seizure that causes them to grab hold of my arm and not let go, that doesn’t give me the right, in the name of ‘bodily autonomy’, to murder them to make them let go.”

            It does give you the right to remove then with FORCE , not with the intent to kill them, but you can use force to remove them. It is the same with pregnancy, you have the right to remove the contents of your uterus and terminate gestation using FORCE. It may sound callous, but that is irrelevent. Though i agree bodily autonomy is not absolute, it does give us the right to FORCIBLY remove someone attached to us or inside us.

            adoption is NOT an alternative to pregnancy, adoption is an alternative to parenting.

          • Sam Benito

            You say, “It does give you the right to remove them with FORCE, not with the intent to kill them, but you can use force to remove them.” But abortion is, by definition, an enforced procedure done with the certain knowledge that it will, and thus with the definite premeditated intent to, kill.